Low carb and hangovers.

Paysan wrote:<sigh> I'm still stuck at the fact that you can make fatty acids from ethanol. I presume excess alcohol is any amount that contributes to inflammation. In my case, that would be anything above a sip or sniff. <sigh>

This is something no one ever seems to mention. Likely because its irrelevant and never happens in most cases.
Glucose to fat conversion is about 70% efficient. c6 -> c30 is 70% by calorie.
C2 -> C6 Likely is also of that same 70% order, making that c2->c30 process around 50% efficient.

However C2 cant be converted to anything without insulin. C2 makes no insulin, only c6 and above do. Making the C2 discussion irrelevant, because excess calories from C2 will be ignored while C6 or higher is present.

Inflammation is fed by carbs, truly ethanol isn't a carb, ethanol can and will do this - it will supply your energy needs while everything else you eat is stored, and if you were in ketosis before ethanol comes in you will stop burning fat and burn ethanol. That part is a given. But whatever it is happening I'm going to guess ethanol is only indirectly causing it.

No one seems to want to explain what happens when a person in deep ketosis has a 100 calorie ethanol shot and nothing else.

I discussed with my chiro and my friend who's a chiro.
Alchy in moderate amounts 2/day men, 1.5 women dilates blood vessels and thins the blood. Definitely anti inflammatory. @ that level It creates cortisol in small amounts which is anti inflammatory as well. Short term its beneficial, long term likely no effect on inflammation.
Go past that number and it rapidly does the opposite to your blood vessels. By 4 for men, its reversed all its dilation and started to constrict blood vessels. Definitely inflammatory. It also ramps up cortisol pretty steeply. Which is anti inflammatory, but only when the blood can take it to where its needed. So its basically useless.
Its going to make it harder to lose fat, especially belly fat from the cortisol and the fact you stop burning fat when its in your blood. On that count its all round bad.
So even if you had no insulin from anything else (Low carb diet) the cortisol and the calorie influx can stall weight loss. Which I am noticing, but I am on a maintenance type run now cos I want to take my blood work @ near the same weight as the last one in Oct 2016 - which is ~180+ and I am going to try to stay ~170 or so till that's done, then I'll quit drinking atleast till summer. I don't want to be comparing apples and oranges by comparing myself @ 150 to 180+ That makes for meaningless - might as well compare 2 different people.

According to some recent research that I read recently, those daily amounts are actually higher than beneficial for men and women. Speculating from your theories, it would appear that there are too many inflammatory factors already existing in our daily lives to be able to handle much more.
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, although no insulin response is called forth, excess alcohol makes for beer bellies and arterial disease. Where have we heard that before??

That's my whole point - I am not sure arterial plaque or a beer belly can be created without the help of excess insulin. In fact that's my main point ahead of the blood work. Triglycerides wont be high after 6+ months of drinking if you are low carb and only match your calorie requirement.

If you have a beer belly (I don't @ last mirror check) or arterial plaque (I am using Trig's and my BP values as a measure of this - inaccurate as it may be) then alchy will prevent it from getting going away/cleared if you meet all your calorie needs with alcohol even if you don't create insulin. Just a working theory (which isn't in the scope of my experiment)

Alcohol makes cortisol to lock away belly fat, so there is no reason why I need to keep drinking past my blood test, cos the last few grabs of fat have frustrated me for over a year now. That's the whole cortisol battle. In fact 6 months of not drinking got me thin everywhere but had left the few grabs intact. I should have found out about cortisol sooner. My job creates a lot of stress too. I gotta address that, likely with some HIIT and sprints.

How closely are you tracking your insulin? Also, now that I've read Fung's book on fasting, I am intrigued by his statement that he has (had) never sent his weight loss successes for skin removal surgery. Somehow fasting helped catabalize excess protein contained in skin, nerves and unneeded blood vessels. Maybe this explains what happened to my third chin and loose underarm swaying skin. It has made me want to try fasting on a regular basis. Except that I prefer IF to full on fasting for days at a time.
Try fasting some more, and get back to us in late spring. Maybe your fat grabs, known as love handles, will be down to wrinkles by then.

Yea fasting tends to catabolize all the "junk" protein. Skin and wrinkles are definitely junk to our eye, maybe not to the body. Maybe I am too paranoid about muscle loss, cos not all protein is "muscle" even alzheimers is a protein that's gone rogue, so are many cancers. I dunno, I need to fast more ... I guess.

My first bad BP check in over a year. 139/93. It was @ the end of the day, after 10 or so alchy's but 3 of those + 3 coffee's were in the prior 3 hrs. So atleast immediately after drinking it hurts.
Also the alcohol seems to be having a pattern on weight loss when fasting.
The initial 4 days usually results in 12lb or so loss after which it tapers off to 3/4 lb and then down to 2/3 after a few more days.
Now with 2000-2500 cal split 50/50 as alcohol and nuts I take ~5 days to get down 12 lb. Then it tapers down as before I think.
I am actually coming up with a good on ramp to fasting for my cousin who's not been able to fast. Basically the first 4 days - eat nuts (she doesn't drink). Then stop eating. A nice rapid weight loss would encourage her, but I think the stubborn insulin resistance would keep that from happening for her is my fear.

Firstly, Srinath, your bad b/p reading was to be expected. Excess alcohol always results in adversity somewhere down the line, especially over time. Your desire to experiment is commendable; but for the sake of your liver, it may be time to call a halt. In your case, you've proven that weight loss slows down when fasting. Not that I consider half booze and half nuts an ideal segue for fasting.
Nuts, depending on kinds and amounts, can hinder ordinary weight loss efforts mostly because they are so addictive. Suggesting nuts as a leadup to fasting is like putting huge boulders in the path up an already steep mountainside. I'd switch her to ghee, avocados,  and other good fats like coconut oil to suppress cravings on a keto diet for at least a week BEFORE beginning a fast. It may or may not get her past the "keto flu" before having normal reactions to fasting, but may help her cope better.
At the very least, see if she can handle reduced calorie intake by intermittent fasting. If she can handle that, she may be able to handle total fasting.

Let me try the BP reading without the alchy, atleast 1/2 of that I'll bet is the coffee. Cos the last abnormal reading I got was in the 80's and that was after 2 cups of coffee in the last 4 hrs. I gotta go back and look at it. But coffee has a big impact.
My blood tests are to be scheduled in very very short order, so its time to call it a day for the alchy - in fact yesterday was down to under 1 (sampling a friends home brews) and today likely to be none. If my tests are scheduled for later in the week I should still be in the high Trig's zone.
Now, I've actually proven in my case atleast - weight loss is unaffected by 2500 cals 1/2 as nuts and 1/2 as alcohol. Not the opposite. Please read my post again. Instead of dropping 12lb in 4 days I took 5 - so really its no big deal. I only have 2-3 iterations of the non alcohol fasts and just about 2 of the alcohol+ nuts fasts.
I dunno I find nuts and alcohol help me fast. I can easily cut back on both. Like yesterday on day 5 since solid food, I only ate 1 oz of flax and less than 1 drink. Maybe my cousin works differently ? I dunno. I used to do keto for a few days before a fast too, but she cant do a keto diet though, she's vegetarian, and I suggested butter and ghee already, she seems to scarf it down and few mins later want to eat again. I thought nuts can get her to slowly eat through the day and walk into ketosis.

I'm willing to bet that your magnesium levels have dropped again, Srinath. This can affect your inner lining of blood vessels , causing them to contract. That will cause your blood pressure to rise - but you know this already.
A lot depends on what kinds of nuts you are using and how much alcohol you scarf down.
As for your relative, maybe there are vegetarian iterations of the keto diet, but I haven't looked at them. Of course your cousin is different from you. First off, she's female. We have different responses to hormones, foods, and fasting than men.
However, once she successfully does fasting, she will leave off her fear of going hungry, and that may be the greatest benefit of all.

Mg - OK I'll check, I scarf down peanuts mainly, but flax and (walnuts, pecans, almonds) account for atleast 15% each.
Of late its been peanuts = 4-5, flax = 1-2 and all others = 1-1.5 all totaling ~6-8 total servings.
Maybe 5 oz peanuts, 2 flax and 1 of others.

PS - lacto vegetarian diet that's also ketogenic - well, if they don't eat just nuts, olives and avocado and cheese - doesn't exist. All vegan food is very very high in the carb to protein ratio. You even get close to 100gm protein, you will overshoot 100 in carbs and that = insulin resistant person will never get that magic "ketosis" state.
It works after fasting and breaking the insulin stranglehold, but not before.

Just to remind you: this is a Primal Forum. We are still working on the rules, but there will be no vegan discussion permitted as it goes against Primal.

And I won't even bother to correct you for the umpteenth time on your 'lacto vegan' nonsense. Guess I did anyway.

Sorry, my wife keeps referring to herself as Lacto Ovo vegan, so my cousin who wont eat eggs becomes Lacto V (egan)
I should refer to my lovely as LOV and refer to my cousin as LV.

Vegetarian is not vegan, Srinath. The main difference is animal protein from milk, butter ,ghee, cheese and fish. Some vegetarians stretch their limits by including eggs and poultry. If she can eat those, she can do keto. If not, then total fasting may be the only way she can stave off the evils of a high carb intake. All the advice we can give will fall on deaf ears if she is unwilling to make any major lifestyle changes.

Discussion will not be permitted?

Ofcourse discussion is permitted.

But why would anyone want to debunk vegan dogma or explain why at least some amount of meat/fish/fowl/eggs/dairy is healthier than being vegan?

Because it might help someone change their mind.

ekba wrote:Because it might help someone change their mind.

Who? People that join must have noticed the header:

Primal Forums

An open community of people who follow the primal/paleo lifestyle.

But you may have a point there. After all we've already got a few members that need guidance.

Paysan wrote:Vegetarian is not vegan, Srinath. The main difference is animal protein from milk, butter ,ghee, cheese and fish. Some vegetarians stretch their limits by including eggs and poultry. If she can eat those, she can do keto. If not, then total fasting may be the only way she can stave off the evils of a high carb intake. All the advice we can give will fall on deaf ears if she is unwilling to make any major lifestyle changes.

OK my wife will eat plant products, dairy and eggs. She will not eat mushrooms, but that's cos she doesn't like their taste.
My cousin will not eat eggs either but will eat mushrooms.
No one will eat fish, chicken, or anything that was alive and walking/running/crawling/swimming/flying.

I have tried for 4+ months to get a under 25 carb and 100 protein diet with those parameters. Impossible, but including the "magic powders of whey and soy and other lab made crap" yes. And my cousin loves soy. And she eats dairy, but the first thing I did was to stop her from eating both (soy and whey derived BS - not real dairy)
Because, for weight loss Whey and soy are - well - you might as well eat sugar cos they create so much insulin and estrogen - its never going to let you lose weight.

Point of reference on open discussion: As part of creating an account, there is now a preliminary terms of service type thing that the person must agree to. We're also working on a "sticky" post to go in the introductions that is tentatively titled Guidelines for use. In the current draft is a line in the first section that says that "Excessive promotion of lifestyles antithetical to the Scope of this forum (eg: veganism) is prohibited."

Now this will kind of beg the question here. It does not say you can't discuss other stuff, but if you bring your soapbox and "one man band," you'll find yourself getting cut off. Right now, we have three people on the moderator team and hopefully we will use good judgement in making the call on what is excessive. This forum is targeted to paleo/primal folks, and the moderator team has had, and anticipates continuing to have, significant discussion regarding how much, how far, is OK in this regard.

I dont intend to ever push any sort of veganist agenda.
I however have a few people in my life who are card carrying non meat eaters.
If something was moving under its own power - they wont eat it. What is that "diet/WOE" called ?

Don't know, don't care.

srinath_69 wrote:If something was moving under its own power - they wont eat it. What is that "diet/WOE" called ?

Doesn't this imply that they can't consume bacteria of any kind? This diet/WOE is called "starvation."

Srinath was just being facetious! Heheheh.At one time, in my youth, I thought that eating living creatures as opposed to living plant life, was the best way of life. I looked at Adam and Eve, created vegetarian, and decided to make that ancestral pair my ideal. Alas, my attempts to forego most animal proteins left me so weak that I feared for my life and future. Too bad I didn't realize that their descendant Noah was given divine authorization to eat meat - most likely because they had degenerated so far from perfection, along with their environment, that it was now a necessity. Now I'm a carnivore, more or less.

Will the zero vegetable folks get cut off too? Vegetables are the base of the Primal food pyramid, so that would seem antithetical to Primal as well.