How long can you live w/o veggies?

I don't understand, do you think Primal/ Paleo is extreme? veganazism is DEFINITELY extreme, for sure, but I feel like everything is totally back to normal now. no more whacky ethics or environmental issues involved at mealtime. if it tastes good, eat it! no consequences or hidden agendas in that

OKayyyy! Cheesecake, icing, peanut butter and/or onion and mayo samiches, KFC ,Chinese takeout coming up.
Oh wait! Weren't these the tasty things responsible for bleeding ulcers, total fatigue and serious weight gain in me over 20 years ago?
Sorry Priest, but good taste does not equate to good health in my book. I've had to amputate most of my taste buds in order to regain a measure of health. It's not that those items don't taste good, but that my tastes have been trained along different paths now.

sorry, I meant tastes good AND healthy. I speak from the Primal perspective, not the SAD

https://www.dietdoctor.com/ketogenic-diet-fewer-vegetables

Interview of Ivor Cummins with Georgia Ede is temporarily available for non-members of dietdoctor.

Hmm, that was quite interesting.

Absolutely! Please note that Georgia Ede wasn't recommending a totally plant-free diet; but was close to it. Why? Because after trying almost every diet ever devised in N.A.; she personally received great benefit from a ketogenic diet. However, she may find later on that strict adherence to a 100% keto diet may fail her in the end. Dr. Mercola gives some insight on this even as he advocates for a cyclical keto diet that gives benefits while reducing some foreseeable drawbacks.
https://articles.mercola.com/ketogenic-diet.aspx
You will see that Mercola has changed his stance several times over the intervening years, but only as new info becomes available. He still eats veggies and grows most  of his own.

Keto is not plant free... au contraire.

Georgia Ede has her own personal reasons for keeping certain veggies/fruits out of her diet, aside from what she explains in her famous lecture 'Little Shop Of Horrors. The Risks And Benefits of Eating Plants' AHS 2012, so she eats a mostly meat diet.

Whether from a religious standpoint, or a philosophical one, to me, taking a stand against vegetables (or plants) isn't any better than taking a stand against meat.

This planet is filled with bounty. It's almost a 'sin' to poo-poo a whole group of food.

I'm not fond of a lot of veggies, but it would be tough for me to go without the ones I like for very long. That said, if I had to feed myself today on $X, I'd spend most of it on meat.

Thought this would fit nicely in this thread: https://optimisingnutrition.com/2018/03/14/dr-shawn-bakers-carnivore-diet-a-review/

Not so much because of the carnivore part, but more because Marty Kendall is all about nutrient density. Plus it mentions Joe and Charlene Anderson, still doing fine on their ribeye regime. As well as the 2 boys.

http://meatheals.com/2018/02/04/charlene-andersen/#comment-133

FWIW I like veggies (especially those that are technically fruits). Colourful ones. As a sidedish to my protein. And not in the form of raw kale... Then again, I've never had any of the issues with food the people in the 'meatheals' blog have/had. JMMV

^ These people have done well with this program, In particular, Charlene at age 42 has a body most young 20 types would envy.

My one experiment with starting off on Atkins back in the 70's seems to be pretty much in line with this "all carnivore" idea. I was good at first, but steadily felt worse as I progressed. I made it a few weeks in and just ran out of available energy to do anything at all. Perhaps I just didn't hang in long enough, but I just couldn't go any longer with it. I'll pass on further experiments with it, once was 1 time too many for me.

Very interesting links, Lovebird.  Spent too much time on the first one! Made some comments, see "pzo," my anywhere alter-ego.

While an all meat diet has helped some people greatly, I have concerns that show up in the first link, sub-optimal blood scores, for instance. And methionone loads.  I think that for some, the carnivore diet is like veganism.  Some outliers do well.  Most of us, not so much.

Also, Bor.......ing.

Most of us don't have the means nor desire to track our blood scores, optimal or otherwise. We tend to accept that as long as we feel good, that everything is  ok. It may not be, but that's the way it is. Only sick people tend to worry about their scores.
FWIW, meat and fat diets aren't as boring as you'd think. Stephansson ate steak for a full year. There's no record of him ever refusing it during, nor even after the experiment ended. Those on the zero carb forum say the same about their meat choices.
OTB, I'd hazard a guess that your ancestors came from areas of year-round vegetables. But northern cultures are not outliers, just ...different. And I just saw my daughter's cat, a committed carnivore, outside chewing on grass. Hmmmm.

I've been considering going on an zero-carb diet for a while, since I still don't seem to loose weight on a regular keto-diet. But I've been reading "The Bears thread here
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=287013

...he certainly doesn't convince me. He braggs how super healthy he is and then mentions in a sidenote that he had throat cancer even though he never smoked nor drank much - the Drs were puzzled. His fasting glucose is around 100, I would personally be worried about my fasting glucose if it was around 100... and he spouts a lot of "facts" that are demonstrably false (zero carbs = zero insulin).

Granted you can live on zero carbs, for many many years even. And some people with severe digestive issues even thrive on it. The Inuit certainly did it and so did the masai. But I am still not convinced that it is generally better for everyone.

P.S. Could live on raw fish easily for a long time, but seal is disgusting... would not be able to stomach that raw or cooked

Dawn, I've read Bear's comments several times over the years. Yes, he is scientifically inaccurate all over the place. And, who know about the throat cancer? People get lung cancer who have never smoked, men get breast cancer. Was it too much grill meat? I have no idea and I think conjecture would be dangerous.

A FBG of 100 is perfectly good and normal. Sure, we all like less, but 100 is OK. In fact, if we factor in the many observations that low carbers often have a creeping upward of FBG, it's possible that if he ate a few carbs it could be down at 85-90.

I wouldn't suggest that the throat cancer is due to the zero-carb diet (sorry if it came off like that). But it certainly failed to prevent it, he wasn't the example of perfect health that he claimed. That was my point.

Dawn, OK!

NO one has "perfect health." It's like people saying they've never been to the doctor's. Impossible. Even if a witch doctor.

I seriously doubt that Grok & co. would eat a 0 carb diet unless that was dictated by environment.

Rig D - I agree

So for northerners living where veggies don't grow, they have little choice except to eat mostly meat and fat, or buy inferior veggies shipped in by expensive air freight. But before we cry tears over their deprivation, those who stick to that severe a diet likely have no trouble with allergies, digestive ailments like celiac and Crohn's. The rest of us eat our veggies and have to dodge pesticides, herbicides and naturally occuring plant toxins. Or else do mainly as Bear did, w/o the braggadocio.

http://foodmed.net/2018/05/mikhaila-peterson-poster-girl-carnivore/

Some times one simply has no other choice...

Lovebird wrote:http://foodmed.net/2018/05/mikhaila-peterson-poster-girl-carnivore/

Some times one simply has no other choice...

Interesting. I knew Jordan Peterson's daughter had RA and resolved most of her issues through diet, but didn't know she was a full-on carnivore.

Perhaps the paleo autoimmune protocol isn't strict enough? It's probably better to go super-minimalist (i.e. meat and water) to begin with. From Mikhaila's list of foods that screw with her, she notes that the first 12 items "really bothered [her]," and it includes rather surprising items like citrus fruits and green cabbage. Definitely not foods that are eliminated from any common AIP list I know of.

http://mikhailapeterson.com/2018/04/24/worst-offenders-to-safest-foods-and-why-vegans-get-better/

Thanks for the link, Nightly Orange. Know the website, just not these last entries.

Citrus fruits are out on most elimination diets (along with gluten/dairy/soy/eggs/corn/pork/beef/chicken/beans/lentils/coffee/nuts/nightshades) but indeed not on the AIP list of foods to avoid. I do think there is value is 30 days only eating what is safe, but the issue is that those foods are not the same for everyone (some react to for example beef/pork/chicken) and too much restriction makes it hard (especially coming from SAD) to follow, so paleo/primal/AIP is at least a step in the right direction. I'm glad she figured out what works for her.

Looking at your list LB, I guess all that’s left is fish/seafood and many have issues with shellfish. Could not be a carnivore on that list.

I guess that’s a good reason we are all very different and need to avoid different things.

You are correct that some of her issues definitely are not avoided on typical AIP, which is pretty strict itself.

Narrowminded wrote:Looking at your list LB, I guess all that’s left is fish/seafood and many have issues with shellfish. Could not be a carnivore on that list.

No? What about game? Lamb? Goat? Turkey? Rabbit? Duck?   Granted it would be more difficult than with beef, but not impossible. And I'm sure there's more I can't think of right now, which are simply not as common as beef/pork/chicken.

I'm all about the marine mammal diet. Whales and seals, baby. Human beings came from the sea, and we should eat from the sea. A sea otter steak is more ancestral than a ribeye.