How long can you live w/o veggies?

LB true, I did forget about game and turkey. However, where I live seeing game will only happen if you know someone who hunts. I can’t even find duck around here. I can get turkey and minimal lamb. No goat, no rabbit. A friend does bring me venison at times, but nothing with regularity.

Getting marine food here is also a major stretch. As is mammals, nope not around here.

That’s ok, I don’t have any plans on switching to a carnivore diet.

Shawn Baker ate a carnivore diet for a year. His fasting glucose is now 127 mg/dl, in the diabetic range. He says that it was normal before. Other blood tests are suboptimal. His testosterone is freakishly low for such a muscular guy.

• Robb Wolf's podcast with Shawn Baker

sharperhawk wrote:Shawn Baker ate a carnivore diet for a year. His fasting glucose is now 127 mg/dl, in the diabetic range. He says that it was normal before. Other blood tests are suboptimal. His testosterone is freakishly low for such a muscular guy.

• Robb Wolf's podcast with Shawn Baker

He notes that despite the blood glucose, he's still extremely insulin sensitive (on a scale of 2 to 20, with about 8 being the American average, his number was 2.6). There might be dawn phenomena involved, since his BG drops to the 80s over the course of the day. Also, re:testosterone, he gets boners every morning.

An argument he put forth is that his diet and lifestyle may sensitize him to hormones like testosterone, and allow him to do more with less, as it were. I heard something similar on the recent Joe Rogan and Peter Attia podcast, where they were talking about lactic acid levels in the muscles of elite athletes. Some athletes are elite because they can endure incredibly high levels of pain and acid buildup, but others (such as Michael Phelps) are elite because their levels never rise high at all even during Olympic competition, due to their body being so efficient at processing it.

So for something like testosterone, the pure concentration may not be the only thing that matters, but also how well your body utilizes what's available.

High blood glucose over time is damaging in its own right. Insulin is a mechanism to keep glucose in range. This mechanism does not appear to be working correctly for Shawn Baker. He wrote on his blog that he has done over 100 glucose measurements, and the FBG and A1C are consistent with his own home testing.

The dawn phenomenon for non-diabetics looks like this (peak of 92 mg/dl).


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6389230

He has the free testosterone of a 16 year-old girl. How does an erection explain this situation?

Any scientific reference for the "super sensitivity" claim? Athletes have more T than couch potatoes and teenage girls, not less. I don't know what Usain Bolt's testosterone is, but I bet it is several times higher than Sailor Moon's.

The explanation I've heard is that Baker was probably using performance-enhancing drugs and then stopped before his lab tests. Apparently very low testosterone is a telltale sign. Baker claims that he is a natural athlete.

The best analysis I've seen is by ItsTheWooo: Magical thinking and born again low carbers: Shawn Baker drama continues.

sharperhawk wrote:High blood glucose over time is damaging in its own right. Insulin is a mechanism to keep glucose in range. This mechanism does not appear to be working correctly for Shawn Baker. He wrote on his blog that he has done over 100 glucose measurements, and the FBG and A1C are consistent with his own home testing.

The dawn phenomenon for non-diabetics looks like this (peak of 92 mg/dl).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6389230

He has the free testosterone of a 16 year-old girl. How does an erection explain this situation?

Any scientific reference for the "super sensitivity" claim? Athletes have more T than couch potatoes and teenage girls, not less. I don't know what Usain Bolt's testosterone is, but I bet it is several times higher than Sailor Moon's.

The explanation I've heard is that Baker was probably using performance-enhancing drugs and then stopped before his lab tests. Apparently very low testosterone is a telltale sign. Baker claims that he is a natural athlete.

The best analysis I've seen is by ItsTheWooo: Magical thinking and born again low carbers: Shawn Baker drama continues.

I'm also leery of even slightly elevated blood sugar for extended amounts of time. I'm not necessarily defending Baker or his claims, was simply jotting down the counters he offered on Wolf's podcast. The non-natty thing never even occurred to me, but I've been on the internet long enough that I should have thought of that, haha.

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-carnivore-diet-pros-cons-and-suggestions/

Yes, read that too LB. Seems pretty balanced for what it is.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/201904/the-carnivore-diet-mental-health Georgia Ede

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPCvkvY4xYYO_cW0-If6aesfpGmudTPnR in case you're interested in all presentations from the Carnivory Con 2019 in Boulder CO, hosted by Amber O'Hearn, given by lots of familiar names like Ballerstedt/Peterson/Ben-Dor etc.

https://www.carnivorecast.com/

"He's baaaaack!""

Actually, I've checked in from time to time but nothing I wanted to comment about showed up.

Anyway, here's the correct URL for the paper and video mentioned: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/201904/the-carnivore-diet-mental-health

As usual, Georgia Ede knocks it out of the ball park. Packs in so much science, explains well, good supporting art work.

Re-interested in diet and health, put myself on the chain gang (recording all food eaten, discipline) Monday last. Yuk.

OnTheBayou wrote:"He's baaaaack!""

Actually, I've checked in from time to time but nothing I wanted to comment about showed up.

Anyway, here's the correct URL for the paper and video mentioned: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/201904/the-carnivore-diet-mental-health

As usual, Georgia Ede knocks it out of the ball park.  Packs in so much science, explains well, good supporting art work.  

Re-interested in diet and health, put myself on the chain gang (recording all food eaten, discipline) Monday last.  Yuk.  

Hi OTB! How's Kirsten, and married life?

Your link is exactly the same as the one I posted... which was correct to begin with.

Isn't going on a carnivore diet an admission that the previous diets failed you? If Primal works, why be more restrictive?

sharperhawk wrote:Isn't going on a carnivore diet an admission that the previous diets failed you? If Primal works, why be more restrictive?

Who are you referring to?

If you have any familiarity with the Peterson story, he was already eating meat and greens. When he dropped salads his health improved by leaps and bounds. Physical and mental.

Lovebird wrote:

OnTheBayou wrote:"He's baaaaack!""

Actually, I've checked in from time to time but nothing I wanted to comment about showed up.

Anyway, here's the correct URL for the paper and video mentioned: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/201904/the-carnivore-diet-mental-health

As usual, Georgia Ede knocks it out of the ball park.  Packs in so much science, explains well, good supporting art work.  

Re-interested in diet and health, put myself on the chain gang (recording all food eaten, discipline) Monday last.  Yuk.  

Hi OTB! How's Kirsten, and married life?

Your link is exactly the same as the one I posted... which was correct to begin with.

You're right,somehow my copy and paste included her name which bollixed it up.

What a memory. Brief version, Kirsten ended things May 17 last year..........although we kept up a lot of communications, analysis about us, saw each other not infrequently for another seven months. And then she just ghosted me. Oh, well, Paul loses in love again. That will probably wrap it up for me, I'll be 73 next month. Oh, my knee surgery (one year tomorrow) caused her to see that, as I warned her, I AM 20 years older and will suffer health issues.

Welcome back OTB.

So sorry things didn’t work out with Kirsten. You still have a chance for love. You’re never too old.

OnTheBayou wrote:Who are you referring to?

I am referring to the people posting in this thread. Why is there interest in eating nothing but meat? Hasn't the Primal Blueprint - animals and plants - been working for you guys?

What a memory. Brief version, Kirsten ended things May 17 last year..........although we kept up a lot of communications, analysis about us, saw each other not infrequently for another seven months. And then she just ghosted me. Oh, well, Paul loses in love again. That will probably wrap it up for me, I'll be 73 next month. Oh, my knee surgery (one year tomorrow) caused her to see that, as I warned her, I AM 20 years older and will suffer health issues.

So sorry to hear that OTB... that must have hurt badly... I'm with NM on this, please don't give up on love... it'll come when you least expect it and age has got nothing to do with it, after all you've shared plenty about your good genes and long lived close family members. Hope your knee is doing well and it's good to have you back posting.

sharperhawk wrote:Isn't going on a carnivore diet an admission that the previous diets failed you? If Primal works, why be more restrictive?

sharperhawk wrote:

OnTheBayou wrote:Who are you referring to?

I am referring to the people posting in this thread. Why is there interest in eating nothing but meat? Hasn't the Primal Blueprint - animals and plants - been working for you guys?

Some of us are simply interested in a variety of subjects where health is concerned, like you are too.   Doesn't mean Primal has failed us personally, however (links in) threads like these often provide answers about which plants might not be as benign as generally thought, that's all. I'm always amazed to read that some members have never bothered to do a proper elimination diet to figure out which foods bother them, or simply choose to ignore the results... there is no one fits all solution as you very well know and therefore I shared some up to date info that might be beneficial to others.

And hey, it brought OTB back! It would be nice to see Neck and several others that used to post frequently return as well...

LB wrote: I'm always amazed to read that some members have never bothered to do a proper elimination diet to figure out which foods bother them...

It is obvious from my diary that I have never done this. Maybe I should. I am open to decent instructions.

Nice to meet you OTB.

I have no problem with an elimination diet for a while to figure out which foods are causing problems. When I see people following the carnivore diet, they are not doing it for ~60 days like AIP. They expect to be following it indefinitely. They are anti-science and say that meat eaters don't really need such-and-such vitamins. This is the cult side of low carb. Avoid like the plague.

sharperhawk wrote:

OnTheBayou wrote:Who are you referring to?

I am referring to the people posting in this thread. Why is there interest in eating nothing but meat? Hasn't the Primal Blueprint - animals and plants - been working for you guys?

It's less about me than looking around constantly and getting new inputs. Having said that, I'm considering a short term ZC test. All animal, not just only meat. But then I think of all the still healthy things that add variety and flavor, and I shy away. We shall see.

The fact is, SH, that many people have eaten paleo/Primal and not attained the benefits of carnivory/ZC/All Animal. And even with the group, there are large differences of what there bodies will tolerate.

One of the Carnivorycom video comments led me to a link where an expert was asked about this, and he predicted early deaths. His expertise was in the gust biome, and posted dire warnings about lack of short chain fatty acids, lack of fiber, blah blah. One of those scientists who said that bumblebees couldn't possibly fly based on the laws of engineering.

It's bad enough when an ignorant person refuses to accept real world results, but when "experts" do, I'm speechless.

sharperhawk wrote:I have no problem with an elimination diet for a while to figure out which foods are causing problems. When I see people following the carnivore diet, they are not doing it for ~60 days like AIP. They expect to be following it indefinitely. They are anti-science and say that meat eaters don't really need such-and-such vitamins. This is the cult side of low carb. Avoid like the plague.

I just made some comments that would have used this posting too, in my responses.

Not to be avoided like a plague. People get results, despite dire warnings (see my post.)

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw7pZr1AsTo/

As you can see it originally says 'Different Ways To Do Carnivore" but this was the best screenshot I could get, as I'm not actually an Instagram member...