Quitting dairy is kicking my butt...

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Post by mudhenny on Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:33 pm

I've been pretty healthy and fit overall, but I have 3 health issues that are making my life miserable and that I would really like to resolve. My diet has been pretty much Primal and fairly good, but I've been experimenting with food eliminations to see if that could make a difference with my issues.

I've never had much problem eliminating anything, even going gluten-free was not difficult at all. But I also didn't see any change from eliminating it. I just think it's the right thing to do, so I only eat gluten very rarely (like a social occasion). About 6 weeks ago I decided to try and cut down on dairy, went from lots of HWC and cheese, to butter in my coffee and small amounts of goat cheeses. I lost 10 pounds without trying, going from 140 to 130 lbs, so not an insignificant amount! Thinking maybe this was a clue that dairy had a big effect on my body. But the idea of going without dairy makes me extremely sad (never again---cheesecake, pizza, cream in my coffee, etc....)

I am on day 3 of complete dairy elimination, and I feel AWFUL! I either have some kind of bug, or severe detox! I'm very achy and tired, nose is running or gunked up all day. I sleep enough but don't feel rested, I'm depressed, etc...Could quitting dairy really have that much of an effect on me? Anybody experience this and have an idea what to expect?

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Post by Narrowminded on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:50 am

Yes, dairy can have that effect. I am right now experimenting with using a bit. I have to be very, very careful. I can tell when I’ve had too much as I will be all puffy. Hang in there you’re body is trying to tell you something.

And there are lots of ways to use cashews to make dairy substitutes are really good.
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Post by ONTARIO on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:51 am

Interesting. I have never heard of having a dairy flu but maybe it's possible.

Okay....I left, googled, and came back - mostly because I was curious. I came across this guy's blog:

http://johnderrick.com/miscellaneous/unusual-news/shocking-dairy-detox-this-will-blow-your-mind/

He went off dairy and experienced what you are experiencing. One thing he said stood out, "When I search online I find claims that going off dairy for one week will cause an entire gallon of mucus to exit your body." Of course, I don't know if that's true but it's worth researching. You did say that you have a very gunky nose.

I personally find the opposite to be true - dairy makes me mucous-ey if it's lower fat but fuller fat seems to work better for me.

I would be interested to hear your story a week from now once you might have passed any detox. Please come back and update us.

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Post by sharperhawk on Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:36 am

It sounds like dairy was a major source of your calories. Eating a lot less can produce symptoms: What are the signs of not eating enough?

What are your three health issues that might be helped by eliminating dairy?
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Post by Rig D on Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:56 am

This from Ontario's link is very disconcerting regarding cheese:
So here is an excerpt from an article in the Orlando Sentinel July 13 2003:
"...Why is cheese so addicting? Certainly not because of its aroma, which is perilously close to old socks. The first hint of a biochemical explanation came in 1981, when scientists at Wellcome Research Laboratories in Research Triangle Park, N.C., found a substance in dairy products that looked remarkably like morphine. After a complex series of tests, they determined that, surprisingly enough, it actually was morphine. By a fluke of nature, the enzymes that produce opiates are not confined to poppies — they also hide inside cows’ livers. So traces of morphine can pass into the animal’s bloodstream and end up in milk and milk products. The amounts are far too small to explain cheese’s appeal. But nonetheless, the discovery led scientists on their search for opiate compounds in dairy products.

And they found them...
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Post by Meant2Move on Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:09 pm

That is interesting, Rig. When reading info related to Whole 30, I've come across many comments related to cheese, binging on cheese, and how hard it is to give up cheese. I've never understood that, but maybe for those who are sensitive to it, the morphine is a big factor.

When my husband went dairy free, he didn't experience anything I'd consider a "withdrawal" effect, although he did miss cheese terribly. He did benefit from less inflammation and pain in his joints. I miss using cheese for some cooking, but his improvement is the more important factor...
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Post by mudhenny on Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:28 pm

Thanks for the feedback, I'll write more when I'm feeling better. Tonight I'm still super tired, headache, very crabby, and feeling sorry for myself. Going to bed now. Hopefully this turns a corner soon!

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Post by Narrowminded on Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:30 pm

Interesting article. I must not be sensitive as I can go off dairy without issue. There are things that do taste better with it, but mostly I don’t miss it. I did add back a little as a test, and I like getting some probiotics from the yogurt. However, I think it will be leaving again.
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Post by Lovebird on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:11 am

John Derrick... mr Law Of Attraction (http://www.mysecretcourse.com/)... wouldn't be my first choice for reliable information on nutrition... or perhaps ever. Sorry Ontario/RigD.

The problem is that the study cited in these stories found no such thing.

Researchers at the University of Michigan asked participants to report which foods in a list were most difficult to cut down on or eat in a controlled way.

Not surprisingly, highly processed foods with added fat and refined carbohydrates—things like ice cream, French fries, cookies, chips and cake—topped the list. Cheese ranked somewhere in the middle; it was considered less addictive than sugary, processed foods but more so than steak, eggs, bananas, and broccoli.

But in fact the evidence is weak that casomorphins, when digested, affect most of us this way. And the dietician who made the questionable claim works for an advocacy group called Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, which pushes veganism and urges people to shun cheese. Hardly an objective voice.

http://time.com/4090741/cheese-addictive/

Mark Sisson wrote:I have another qualm that may seem minor but isn’t in my world: the removal of cheese. Cheese has one of the better safety and nutritional profiles of all dairy foods. It’s traditional, with cheese making stretching back thousands of years. It’s fermented, which means most of the lactose has been consumed by bacteria and much of the potentially problematic casein has been modified to be more tolerable. I see no real reason to avoid it.

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/keto-compared/

MS wrote:Overall, it appears that dairy has both benefits and risks, and that where you fall depends on several factors, like gut health, insulin sensitivity, activity level, age, as well as the quality and form of the dairy (which though I didn’t really get into are implicit when discussing dairy). In other words, it’s extremely variable and personal.

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/10-common-arguments-against-dairy-consumption-explored/#axzz2t9owD1x5


That being said: ofcourse it's perfectly okay to check if cheese, and/or other dairy is bad for you personally, like with a W30. Or if you already know, drop it completely from the menu. You know, go Paleo instead of Primal. Or create your own version of Primal for that matter (don't we all?).

Hartwig wrote:Casein, especially when it comes from aged cheese, also causes a specific type of immune system reaction called a histamine response . Histamine intolerance can cause headaches, GI upset, exacerbations of asthma, and seasonal allergies. It is unclear what percentage of the population has this response, but until you have completely removed all dairy proteins from your diet for a period of time, you won’t know whether or not you are affected.

http://whole9life.com/2013/03/the-dairy-manifesto/
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Post by mudhenny on Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 pm

Okay, I'm feeling a lot better tonight. Still very tired today, but my attitude is much improved.

I saw the John Derrick blog on day 2 and read those comments. It was very disconcerting that no one seemed to post follow ups, for better or worse. Leads me to believe that very few kept up with the dairy-free diet, or found enough improvement to make it worthwhile, it is not easy. The whole caseomorphine theory seems a bit far-fetched to me, but I guess it is good to keep an open mind. If this is not a bug that I have, then something really intense is happening with my body!

In general I would agree with Mark Sisson about the qualities of dairy food. But I do believe that a lot of people can't handle it well for one reason or another. Probably a lot of people that don't know their bodies are not handling it well. The only way to really know for sure is to go without for a while.

The health issues that I would like to resolve:
--I have a somewhat rare condition called Atypical Trigeminal Neuralgia (and other names). Basically the trigeminal nerve on one side is disturbed, hard to describe, but it is like having dental pain pretty much all day on that side. As you can imagine it is difficult to live with, treatments are either very unpredictable nerve surgeries, or strong drugs, both of which I am trying to avoid.
--My sleep is crap. I usually wake up very early (2-4 AM) and I may fall back asleep later or not. I often have bad insomnia (2 hours or less) for no discernible reason. Even if I do sleep 7 hours, I rarely feel rested. One of the things I have heard from those that have quit dairy is that "they sleep like a baby". That would be life-changing for me.
--and lastly, I have incontinence that is becoming very difficult to live with. Especially since I work outdoors primarily and not near a restroom. If things don't improve I will need to get surgery.

As I said before, even resolving just one of these issues would make a dairy-free diet totally worth all the hassle.

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Post by Lovebird on Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:07 am

Leads me to believe that very few kept up with the dairy-free diet, or found enough improvement to make it worthwhile, it is not easy.

Lots of people only post in the journal section, like at MDA and barely venture out to the other parts of the forum. Others might simply be busy at the moment... it's a relatively new thread and I moved it to Nutrition (where it belongs IMO) right after you posted it, to improve your chances of getting answers.

The issue could be in what you use(d) to replace the dairy you were eating. You state that while you were cutting back only butter and goat cheese in small amounts stayed. What did you add to replace it with when going without entirely? CO? Almond/coconut milk? Plenty of reasons your body responded to that if not used to it (or sensitive). Lots of people that have problems with milk/cheese are able to keep the grassfed butter. Others don't. YMMV.

Have you tried cutting out acidic foods (citrus/tomato based) or cafeinated/carbonated drinks to find relief for your OAB? Often pelvic floor exercises are advised or bladder training, which I'm sure isn't new to you.

Sounds like your sleep is bad with or without it...
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Post by Lovebird on Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:17 am

If I were you I'd try a Whole30 or some other elimination diet to see what triggers your symptoms. Cut out most irritating/inflammation promoting items and slowly test them after the 30 days are over. That way you'll know for sure.

Perhaps you'd like to start a journal to have a good view of what helps and what doesn't (physical as well as mood wise) as it's not always clear from the start and some changes take time to show their benefits or eventual downsides. Doesn't have to be online, could be on paper or otherwise, whatever works best for you. Ofcourse to see other people's opinion/advice/thoughts sharing it here would be helpful.  Smile

Good luck!


Sounds like your sleep is bad with or without it...

Didn't mean to imply that it might not improve due to going GF/DF, once your body adjusts, just that it's not like it got worse, which is what you more or less suggested in your original post.
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Post by ONTARIO on Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:29 am

Trigeminal neuralgia..... Have you seen a chiropractor? Hubby has a few patients with this and with weekly adjustments their condition resolves.

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Post by Narrowminded on Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:15 am

Mudhenny I hope M2M sees your post about the Trigeminal neuralgia, as it sounds a lot like what she has been facing.

Right now I’d do what seems good for your body, studies or no. They can’t study ever person and I know I can only handle certain dairy and on a very limited basis.

Ontario - good to know about the adjustments available for that. Thanks for the tip.
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Post by Rig D on Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:42 am

My personal dairy experience has been unexceptional, except that I notice that if I drink more than a minimal amount of milk, I seem to retain fluid more and my weight increases. I don't have any other side effects from it, I feel fine, belly feels good. I eat a fair amount of cheese and would not want to eliminate it from my diet.

Mudhenny, glad you are feeling better and hope it improves. FWIW, I would encourage you to try Ontario's advice for the chiropractor. From my family's experience we've found a good chiropractor and had great success with him helping with a variety of "what ails ya." especially some personal nerve pain issues I had in my back. I prefer seeing the chiropractor instead of MD for most physical issues.
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Post by Vh67 on Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:32 am

I am dairy free and have been for years. A small exposure to the proteins in dairy cause an autoimmune response that is very unpleasant. It takes a few days for the swollen lymph nodes and other signs to show up so it took a while to narrow down the problem. I do not remember having symptoms of withdrawal but by the time I stopped eating dairy, including butter, completely, I was not eating much. It is hard and at first there were tears and lots of fist shaking at the dairy gods. I love cheese and always will but it is not worth dying for.

I occasionally use dairy substitutes but it hard to find ones that don't cause problems because of the additives in some of them. There are some ok nut cheezes that are basically nut milk and enzymes but they are not perfect by any means. There is a brand of kombucha that just started making a coconut milk yogurt that is good and not filled with gums. I think it GTS or KTS? And the Forager brand makes a plain cashew milk kefir that has no added gums or other icky things.

In cooking and in my tea, I stick to using coconut milk without any additives. I don't do much baking but on the rare times I do, coconut oil or leaf lard is a good substitute for butter.

If you find cows milk bothers you, you could try sheep or goats milk. Most people that can't tolerate the proteins in cows milk do fine with goat or sheeps milk since the proteins are smaller and easier to digest.

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Post by mudhenny on Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:48 pm

I'm thinking now that I probably had some kind of bug. After 5 days I felt much better, weak but not ill. Since then things have been very up and down, so hard to draw any good conclusions. No clouds breaking apart and beams of light showing me the truth about dairy. I'll be staying gluten and dairy free at least until Sunday when there is a get-together and then decide where to go from there.

But I'm seeing now that a dairy-free existence is definitely possible, not altogether great, but doable. There are great new products out that are pretty good subs, like non-dairy creamers, fake cheeses, ice creams, etc...I actually had a gluten-free, dairy-free pizza last night, still not the healthiest, but not bad!

Vh67 it's interesting to hear the perspective from someone who has been dairy free for a while. I did switch to goat products for a while. I think they are much healthier and humane in general, so if I go back to using some dairy that will be the emphasis.

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Post by Pedidoc on Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:02 pm

I advise patients that dairy increases mucus and makes allergies and asthma worse.
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Post by mudhenny on Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:37 pm

So here is where I am at right now with my "dairy elimination project". I am at 4 weeks now, with one day about a week ago when I had butter and cream cheese, and a couple of days when I had butter.

The interesting thing is that I was having a lot of very mild hot flashes that seemed to be connected to a surge of cortisol. Annoying but not awful. The worst part was that I would get them at night and it disturbed my sleep. The flashes also seemed to lead to bladder spasms. Recently they calmed down and I didn't think much about it as the weather has been cooler. But one night when I ate butter late I started up with them again, and realized I had been having none at all! So I do think this is related to going dairy free, try googling "casein night sweats" and there are a lot of body builders who have seen a connection.

My sleep has also been really quite good--many nights I sleep through with very brief wake ups, and I'm getting 7-8 hours almost every night. Falling asleep very easily, and waking feeling rested. Which is fantastic for me! Interesting that babies with casein protein intolerance have very similar symptoms.

Last night I had butter and my sleep was crap--couldn't fall asleep, several wake-ups, woke up early and had hot flashes. Feel like crap today. If I can't even eat butter, that is really a bummer! (Ghee seems to be okay).

So to summarize--here are the things I believe are dairy-related at this point:
--hot flashes and night sweats
--poor sleep, difficulty getting to sleep, disturbed, having to pee in middle of night, not rested
--going into a "couch coma" after dinner (related to poor sleep also)
--possibly bladder irritation leading to "overactive bladder"

Obviously I am going to stay the course for now, and I'm in no hurry to try and introduce anything dairy related back. I'm going to go really clean this week, absolutely no butter, no eating out. Try out some new recipes such as dairy-free, gluten-free pumpkin pie.

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Post by Narrowminded on Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:50 pm

Happy to hear you have notice some good coming from cutting the diary. That is always a plus. Good luck to you as you continue this week.
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Post by Lovebird on Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:27 am

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/dairy-free-keto/

There's a link in the article on dairy intolerance too: https://www.marksdailyapple.com/dairy-intolerance-what-it-is-and-how-to-determine-if-you-have-it/
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