How long can you live w/o veggies?

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Ellito on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:35 pm

sharperhawk wrote:How would you say that Stefannson rates as an expedition leader?
He was probably okay?
sharperhawk wrote:Would you have wanted to be under his command?
I would not want to do that type of work, but I suppose I would rather have him than someone else.
sharperhawk wrote:Do you think the accounts of his expeditions give you confidence in his mastery of what people need to eat?
Who said anything about mastery?
sharperhawk wrote:What would you say to someone who claimed that he was one of the worst leaders, in terms of food preparation as well as other details?
I don't see how this is important?

The question was "how long can you live without vegetables?" He demonstrated that one can live indefinitely. He lived among cultures that lived without vegetables for most or all of the time. Whether or not you think he was a "master" of what people need to eat, his observations basically answer the question. Unless you think he is directly lying, which I suppose is possible.

That being said, I don't eat vegetables and I don't see any need for them. I've never seen direct evidence of them really being beneficial for humans, unless they're your only source of nutrition, in which case anything is better than nothing.

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Neck2 on Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:06 am

The answer is probably around 80-100 years.
Longest I've done is 6 weeks, but here is people doing 90 day study on it....site is called nequalsmany
There is that whole Facebook group with Charles Washington too.
I've come to think of vegetation as optional. As ellito pointed out, direct studies really don't seem to support the need. I function very well on a carnivorous diet. Through the holidays I'm doing an inadvertent CKD I guess since we have pie and tators...lol

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by sharperhawk on Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:08 pm

We have animal studies, biochemistry studies, and epidemiology that conclude that vegetables are good for optimal health. Long-term randomized human experiments are lacking. It shouldn't be surprising, given the difficulty of conducting them with enough control and good measurement over decades. Lumping all vegetables, and sometimes fruits, together may not be the best research strategy.

Is there any good reason to avoid all vegetables? Maybe an all-meat diet is OK if you dot all i's and cross all t's, but I think that food variety provides safeguards when you have less meticulous people who aren't following your exact protocol.
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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Neck2 on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:11 pm

Goitrogens, fodmaps, nightshades, ect. Poorly absorbed nutrition and various gut irritants. Many find great relief on various elimination protocols that severely limit these things. Scd, gaps, functional medicine elimination diet, induction level Atkins. People get relief from a wide variety of symptoms when they start these protocols. They are then encouraged to add foods back in a systematic manner, but you have to wonder if that's necessary. The carnivore protocol isn't as difficult as you may have been led to believe. No ts to cross or i's to dot really. Most jus call it "eat meat and drink water".....I guess there's a few t's in ther and one I....but you get what I mean Wink
I don't believe everyone needs eliminate all vegetation to reach their potential, nor do I believe eating copious amounts of vegetable matter is beneficial to anyone. For most people vegetation is probably a net zero. Health neutral. So if it displaces junk food, grains, ect then it's a positive impact. But there are a set of people's who have negative effects from various vegetation, and I see no reason to force some "5 a day" mantra on them or anyone.

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Ellito on Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:13 pm

sharperhawk wrote:We have animal studies, biochemistry studies, and epidemiology that conclude that vegetables are good for optimal health.
Can you post these? The closest I saw to good evidence was a study mentioned in the PaleoMom blog link, which showed that spinach inhibited colonic epithelial cell proliferation in rodents. Colonic epithelial cell proliferation is not the same thing as cancer, which is still different from total mortality. You speak as if the evidence is extensive. Can you please show me this evidence? I want to see the convincing animal and biochemistry studies, because I've looked for them before and found them to be unimpressive. Perhaps you've seen something I have not.

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Paysan on Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:27 pm

Since Stephansson's main concern on his first winter apart from civilization was survival, the only leadership skill required was to do the things that led to survival. That meant adopting whatever foods were available, and that led to his fish diet. Later expeditions led to seal, polar bear, and whale diets. This was the basis for his yearlong NYC trials.
He was also an experimenter. If he weren't, he wouldn't have discovered that he could live w/o the trappings of a civilized diet including salt, that fermented fish were palatable (after he trained his palate), that boiled meats and fish as diet were both life sustaining and satisfying.
I'd have likely shot him if he took away my teas, sugar, salt, bread, etc, but if, at the end of 6 months living solely off native foods, I was still alive and somewhat healthy, I'd figure he was one of the best of commanders in such a hostile environment . Cool

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Paysan on Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:59 pm

Aprops of nothing, just came across this significant paragraph in Atlas Obscura from Sept 11, 2015.
"Living creatures develop defenses to keep them alive, and for many plants, those defenses come in the form of chemical compounds that are distasteful or dangerous to animals. Often, those compounds serve as warnings. A bitter taste might make the animal stop eating; an emetic effect may ensure it won’t happen again. But a few plants have a special and deadly skill: they stop their predators before the predators are even born. When eaten, these plants cause certain mammals to abort.'
It was talking about the Western Juniper. And juniper berries are a key to making gin. Rolling Eyes

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Ellito on Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:02 pm

Plenty of plants are toxic or inedible. No one would knowingly eat poison ivy leaves, or poison hemlock leaves. But somehow kale leaves are assumed to be superfoods.

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by srinath_69 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:15 am

You can develop allergies to several veggies of all kinds. Some are toxic to people unless treated first (cashews).
OTOH you dont develop allergies to meat, with shellfish being the first thing that comes to mind as a contraindicator but its not developed. Its more like you're born with it.

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Paysan on Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:29 pm

Case in point- me. I can't handle kale. I tested slightly sensitive to citrus fruits, watermelon (!),  cabbage, iceberg lettuce, and various other vegetables. Also, for that matter, turkey. My brother is allergic to chicken. From my studying, I believe that the diets of the animals are more to blame for sensitivities, and farm practices and breeding for vegetables with declining nutrients. It's a fact that many of our cultivated vegetables had toxic forebears, and they've had to lower the toxin levels for us to eat them. At the same time, this ups their damages from insects, and "requires" multiple sprayings in order to collect a profitable crop. That duo can explain a lot of sensitive guts nowadays.

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by John Caton on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:17 am

One can probably live a long time without vegetables. I doubt one will thrive as well without them, as they will with them.

Fermented vegetables are an excellent source of good gut bugs from which we derive vitamin K.

Without a reasonable source of vitamin C, structural decline is certain as collagen synthesis is dependent on vitamin C as a cofactor.

Carrots are a vitamin A source especially if liver isn't eaten regularly.

One can debate the nutritional value of the phytonutrients in vegetables, but my attitude is that they do no harm and they may really have their purported benefits.




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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Paysan on Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:28 pm

Since various ancestral diets the world over include vegetables, not necessarily grains, it stands to reason that they must be of some benefit, fermented ones especially. Myself, I like sauerkraut and kimchi.
However, I recognize that there are ore and more individuals with damaged guts that cannot make the necessary conversions from vitamin analogs to their useful forms, such as converting the carotene in carrots to Vit A. These unfortunates are like sailors at sea, moaning "water, water everywhere, and not a drop to drink." scratch

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Annieh on Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:35 pm

I can live with without veges from when I wake up, till breakfast time, so maybe a couple of hours or a little longer.

As was mentioned above, if they replace grains and junk food you're moving in a positive direction. Today I had silverbeet, roast potatoes, pork and gravy. DH ate packaged muesli and excessively sweet yoghurt.
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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Nightly Orange on Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:01 pm

John Caton wrote:Without a reasonable source of vitamin C, structural decline is certain as collagen synthesis is dependent on vitamin C as a cofactor.

I've read contrary accounts from guys like Shawn Baker and other zero-carbers, some of whom have eaten nothing but meat (and not even necessarily organ meats) for years or decades but have failed to develop scurvy. The idea is that glucose outcompetes vitamin C in the body, so people who are extremely low-carb become more efficient at utilizing and recycling vitamin C, and their dietary requirements for C diminish. I've also heard it said that since all they're eating is highly bioavailable animal protein, they don't really need much vit. C for collagen synthesis.
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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Acroyali on Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:21 pm

Paysan wrote:I really doubt if populations eating the major part of their diet as meat and fat ever suffered from constipation on a regular basis. The very survival of the "uncivilized" Eskimos depended on their ability to thrive and bear young at an early age, and digestive troubles didn't  seem to appear. The biggest killers of the Eskimos were periodic bouts of famine when seals and their predators weren't available.
I think Stephansson's crew and you would have seen eye to eye about veggies and fruit. Very Happy

JMO but I wonder if the fact that organ meats (especially liver) were consumed regularly helped ward off those issues?

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Acroyali on Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:01 pm

My personal answer to "how long can you live without veggies" is "for quite awhile but it's a shitty existence."
I've never died without vegetables to the best of my knowledge <g> But I know how vegetables (leafy greens much more than roots) make me feel--it's like an instant jolt. My Big Ass Salad still maintains, and even if I'm running low on stuff to make one a bit pile of tomatoes, cucumber, feta cheese and olives topped with some random parsley or whatever makes me smile.
I won't say I couldn't live without them, but I find my life is much better WITH them and I consider myself damned lucky and blessed to have them available year round at my market and available late June through September in my backyard.
(I love winter and I love long winters but damn--that lack of a growing season sucks.)

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Paysan on Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:58 pm

Now you can understand why northern neighbours made meat and fat the major emphasis of their diet. Six month winters and 8 week summers, with bad weather and/or desperate conditions in between made any dependence on vegetable matter a risky matter indeed.

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by meepster on Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:32 pm

Well, I'm not too interested in scurvy, so I eat veggies every day. It is true that eating rats would give me vitamin C as well (rats generate their own vitamin C), but I'd rather just eat veggies.
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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Paysan on Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:59 am

I understand even rats are in short supply if you go north enough. Shocked Wink

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by priest on Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:24 pm

hi everybody! I just joined the forum since MDA went defunct. is srinath in the house?

anyhoo, this year I went the whole month of July without eating any vegetables and still lived! however, I also didn't eat any animal carcasses or secretions or renderings during that time, so I guess that's kind of cheating Wink

I look forward to long and meaningful interactions with all the MDA forum members who have found refuge here, free from all the spam and negativity! it's the best belated Christmas gift I could ever hope for!

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Lovebird on Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:55 am

priest wrote:I look forward to long and meaningful interactions with all the MDA forum members who have found refuge here, free from all the spam and negativity!

If that's what you're here for, you're welcome. Please take a moment to introduce yourself.

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by priest on Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:00 pm

my name is priest.  
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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by OnTheBayou on Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:17 am

priest wrote:my name is priest.  
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Welcome back, John Caton! Great to see you here.

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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Rocky07 on Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:41 pm

priest wrote:my name is priest.  
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Re: How long can you live w/o veggies?

Post by Acroyali on Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:24 pm

On another topic (well, sorta...)

I've always been an avid raw feeder for my pet dogs and cats. I've always fed finely ground (raw) vegetables anywhere from 1-5 times a week (depending on season, availability/overflow, etc.) Our cats usually ignore them or eat around them, or occasionally will take a bite of anything more along the medicinal side (parsley or other herbs types), but one of our middle aged dogs has had problems with crud build up on his teeth. We stopped doing vegetable feeding as fresh vegetables are not easy to obtain here from about September til May or June. Since we ceased feeding vegetables 3-4 months ago, his notorious problem teeth are clearing up, along with the parts of the teeth you "don't see" (insides of the upper molars, etc.)
This isn't for or against vegetables, as I love them. I also understand that my dogs eat raw meat and cat poop and random dead shit they find outside, but it seems kind of interesting that this dog in particular is doing much better without the addition of vegetables. This isn't to say that all humans and every individual within that species would do better WITHOUT (seriously, I'll cut someone if they take my spinach) but it's interesting to see how another species fares rather than focusing on my own.
I'm still pretty amazed that we have dogs and cats well into their teens that need little to no dental work done, and their only difference between them and their kibble-fed bretheren seems to be a diet void of sugars and starches.
JMO, and as always the dog nerd is throwing carnivorous beings into the mix =)



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