Diet and CVD

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Diet and CVD

Post by Rocky07 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:43 pm

Years ago this was a hot topic here and elsewhere in the primal/paleo world. Emerging theories re LDL particle size and inflammation seemed to be ready to supplant CW. Unfortunately, except for the same few contrarians, nothing has changed. Cholesterol targets have stayed the same and statins are still prescribed for what seems like virtually everyone. Conventional dietary advice is pretty much the same as what you would hear in 1960. While research continues, our fundamental understanding of what causes plaque to form and, more important, what causes it to rupture are still not clear. Am I missing something?

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Rig D on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:55 pm

To my understanding you are on target. CW continues to rule the day. I believe that the actual number of people suffering heart attacks is pretty well spread across the high/low cholesterol range, and the things I've read would make you believe that low cholesterol is more dangerous than high, unless possibly if you are super high.

The thing I am most concerned with is the possible relationship of low cholesterol with Parkinsons and other brain degenerative things like Alzheimers. My MD has wanted me on statins to knock down my cholesterol, but has given up, at least for now, as I've told him I'm happy with where I am and willing to die of a heart attack vs just disappearing into some brain failure abyss.
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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Meant2Move on Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:29 pm

I think when it comes to cholesterol, it is a case where the drug companies are absolutely controlling the message, and likely the research. Despite being essential for every cell in the body, the general message is still that cholesterol is evil and that total cholesterol matters.
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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Ellito on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:38 pm

My understanding is that heart disease is mostly a symptom of insufficient thyroid hormones. Hypothyroidism causes high serum LDL, which explains the correlation.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:04 pm

Ellito wrote:My understanding is that heart disease is mostly a symptom of insufficient thyroid hormones. Hypothyroidism causes high serum LDL, which explains the correlation.

Not.At.All.

Radical theory, for sure. There are many factors, but hypothyroidism has never been brought up, anywhere (reputable.)

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:20 pm

'Tis funny you should bring this up.  I was about to start a thread on a supplement, but it fits here.

Suppose you could take a supplement that was cheap, had zero negative side effects, raised HDL and lowered LDL and trigs and often solved other problems like certain mental illnesses and skin disorders.  Sound like a dream?  It's been here forever; niacin, aka B3.

My fiance's LDL was a bit high, 122? Trigs, 72, HDL 62. Not bad and better than many. So I started researching how to lower LDL rather directly instead of long term diet cchanges which may or may not be effective. There were two candidates: niacin and red rice yeast.  It turns out the latter is the place statins were discovered!  Like penicillin in mold. So, by consuming RRY, you are taking a small amount of statins.  The problem with RRY is you have no idea of dosage. And you are taking a statin.  And no benefit to HDL or trigs.  Or, your brain.

The benefit of niacin on serum lipids has been known since the 1950's.  Why isn't it better known?  Hello, statins. Introduced in the 1980's.  Follow the money (and the propaganda.)

There are thousands of search hits out there on this. https://www.bing.com/search?q=serum+pipids+niacin&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR A Dr. Hoffer spent a lifetime studying niacin.  Put him into a search.

Therapeutic doses are 2-3 grams a day.  That's a lot, since niacin will cause skin flushing.  I am using Doctor's Best Time Release Niacin, 500mg.  I pop 3 or 4 during the day, keep the bottle by my computer. Once I tried two at once, and I did get some flushing, slightly uncomfortable, after about ten minutes.

I just found this very detailed paper by Dr. Hoffer: http://whale.to/a/hoffer5.html


Last edited by OnTheBayou on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Rig D on Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:52 pm

Thanks, OTB. I'll do some checking on both B3 and the Red Rice Yeast. My MD suggested RRY some time back and I've been using it, haven't noticed any big effect on my numbers. The niacin sounds intriguing.
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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Ellito on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:45 pm

OnTheBayou wrote:
Ellito wrote:My understanding is that heart disease is mostly a symptom of insufficient thyroid hormones. Hypothyroidism causes high serum LDL, which explains the correlation.

Not.At.All.

Radical theory, for sure.  There are many factors, but hypothyroidism has never been brought up, anywhere (reputable.)

This is actually old news. In many animal experiments, the animals' thyroids are removed to induce heart disease. It's so well-known they don't tend to mention it unless you read the "Methods" section closely. That being said, let's review the evidence:

People with heart disease tend to have high cholesterol, a symptom of hypothyroidism.

Removing or inhibiting an animal's thyroid induces heart disease.

Feeding an animal desiccated thyroid can reverse heart disease.

Pro-thyroid nutrients, like iodide and magnesium, can prevent or reverse heart disease in animals.

Diabetes, which lowers thyroid hormones, causes heart disease.

Giving diabetics insulin does not bring their heart disease rates back to that of the regular population.

Giving diabetics insulin and thyroid hormone brings their heart disease rates back to that of the regular population.

The physician Broda Barnes nearly eradicated heart disease among his patients. He prescribed thyroid hormone for anyone who appeared to need it.

In two (admittedly small) clinical trials, administration of thyroid hormone lowered heart disease rates.

Trials that lower blood sugar (eg LOOK AHEAD and ACCORD) generally fail to prevent heart disease (eg LOOK AHEAD and ACCORD). Not surprising if you don't consider hyperglycemia to be causal.

Hypothyroidism has been redefined. Under the old diagnostic criteria, as much as 40% of the population might be considered hypothyroid. Under the new criteria, only 5% are considered hypothyroid. So as much as 35% of the population would previously have been considered hypothyroid, but now are not, due to a new definition. This explains why hypothyroidism appears so much less common than heart disease.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:52 pm

@Ellito: Too sketchy, too removed from the biggies. For me, any way. Too much nuance to be definitive. I don't think removing a thyroid is what happened to most people with CVD. Inflammation, calcium and plaque build ups, perhaps iron overload, etc.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Ellito on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:55 pm

OnTheBayou wrote:@Ellito: Too sketchy, too removed from the biggies.  For me, any way.  Too much nuance to be definitive.  I don't think removing a thyroid is what happened to most people with CVD.  Inflammation, calcium and plaque build ups, perhaps iron overload, etc.
You don't need to have your thyroid removed to be hypothyroid. Under the old diagnostic criteria, nearly 40% of the population might be hypothyroid. Clearly this is not due to 40% of people having thyroidectomies.

Anyway, modern things that inhibit the thyroid:

Diabetes

Magnesium deficiency

Endotoxin derived from unfavorable gut flora

I would suggest these are probably the big three causes, and the latter two are largely responsible for the first.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by sharperhawk on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:33 pm

Foam cells are macrophages that have swallowed up lots of LDL. That doesn't mean that all LDL are bad, but LDL is center stage, the star player of the show.
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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by breadsauce on Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:28 am

OTB, thanks for the link. I remember now that you have posted this that NewOldGuy (on the old forum!) recommended B3 when I had a heart attack a couple of years back. I'm starting with it today. Those links have made excellent reading and sound sensible. I've also been reading a lot of Dr Malcolm Kendrick's pages - very interesting also.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:12 am

Rig D wrote:Thanks, OTB. I'll do some checking on both B3 and the Red Rice Yeast. My MD suggested RRY some time back and I've been using it, haven't noticed any big effect on my numbers. The niacin sounds intriguing.

Not surprised. As I noted, RRY potency can vary a lot, there is not standardized dosage. There are even claims that some companies actually put statins in the product to make it more potent. While that seems odd and economically illogical to me, it indicates - even as a rumor - that RRY is not the preferred treatment. And since it doesn't do anything for HDL or trigs or mental health or, or, or.............take niacin!

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:19 am

breadsauce wrote:OTB, thanks for the link. I remember now that you have posted this that NewOldGuy (on the old forum!) recommended B3 when I had a heart attack a couple of years back. I'm starting with it today. Those links have made excellent reading and sound sensible. I've also been reading a lot of Dr Malcolm Kendrick's pages - very interesting also.

Great! One of the things that really impressed me on the paper that I linked to above, is that Dr. Hoffer came to his passion for niacin slowly and scientifically. And it involved other scientists and physicians, and that he had no ability to benefit financially.

There have been a few cautionary tales about concerns that the liver can't deal with such levels of B3. While I do think that these cannot be dismissed, and I might do some research, the fact that many have take 2-3 grams of B3 a day for decades would indicate that if there is a problem, it is not universal.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Paysan on Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:48 pm

I underwent a complete lifestyle change 18 years ago, with moving 2/3's way across country, jumping into low carb from a very high carb mountain and no longer caregiving for elderly and youth simultaneously. I lost weight, but within 4 years my cholesterol levels were impressively high. No statins, and I didn't like the statin equivalent in red rice yeast.
Since then, and a couple heart attacks later, my cholesterol levels are as high as they've ever been. My new doc asked if I was ready to die w/o statins. Yes. EOD.
Interestingly, I'm on a low level dose of dessicated thyroid, and my readings have improved for reducing hypothyroidism. When I brought to my former doc's attention that hypo and heart disease are closely related, he allowed the Erfan. I also supplement iodine, selenium and B vitamins, as well as CoQ10. Still here, feebly kicking.Wink

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:37 pm

Paysan wrote:I underwent a complete lifestyle change 18 years ago, with moving 2/3's way across country, jumping into low carb from a very high carb mountain and no longer caregiving for elderly and youth simultaneously. I lost weight, but within 4 years my cholesterol levels were impressively high. No statins, and I didn't like the statin equivalent in red rice yeast.
Since then, and a couple heart attacks later, my cholesterol levels are as high as they've ever been. My new doc asked if I was ready to die w/o statins. Yes. EOD.
Interestingly, I'm on a low level dose of dessicated thyroid, and my readings have improved for reducing hypothyroidism. When I brought to my former doc's attention that hypo and heart disease are closely related, he allowed the Erfan. I also supplement iodine, selenium and B vitamins, as well as CoQ10. Still here, feebly kicking.Wink

What's Erfan?

I'm sure you read my post in another thread about high dose niacin to decrease LDL's and trigs and increase HDL. It also cleared up ten years of mild rosacea on my nose. It's been under control with Benzoclin and 50mg daily Doxycycline. I'll stop the Doxy in a couple of weeks and see what happens.

Anyway, enough about me.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Paysan on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:44 pm

Even lower doses of niacin cause uncomfortable flushing for me. Not that I didn't try, but racing out into the snow to cool superheating skin just didn't cut it for me. I didn't think darker-skinned  people had rosacea, only blondie type people. Sure enough, I have some ugly patches on my face that seem to be decreasing as my fats increase and my supplementation drops per week. My one and only antibiotic trial yielded no results.
Erfan is another dessicated thyroid pill available here in Canada.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:15 pm

Paysan wrote:Even lower doses of niacin cause uncomfortable flushing for me. Not that I didn't try, but racing out into the snow to cool superheating skin just didn't cut it for me. I didn't think darker-skinned  people had rosacea, only blondie type people. Sure enough, I have some ugly patches on my face that seem to be decreasing as my fats increase and my supplementation drops per week. My one and only antibiotic trial yielded no results.
Erfan is another dessicated thyroid pill available here in Canada.

There are several varieties of Niacin. There is the basic nicotinic ?? acid, works fast, causes flushing. There are slow release versions of it, which is what I use, Doctor's Best Time Release. 500mg; often no sense of flushing, sometimes a bit, briefly. Niacinimide is a "no flush" version which gives your basic B3 benefits............but, alas, not the lipid altering ones.


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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Rig D on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:22 pm

Ok, I bought some Solaray 500 mg niacin. Unfortunately it was not time release. So today I took 1 capsule after my breakfast. Big, big mistake!

After about 30 minutes it hit. OMG, it started in my face and within about 15 minutes I felt like I was as red from the waist up as a ripe tomato and felt like my temperature was about 120. Then, about 20 minutes later the itching started. Just awful and the flushing and itching lasted abut 2 1/2 hours.

I'm planning on cutting the dosage in at least 1/2, probably down to 25% and taking the reduced doses over a period of time to simulate time release.

So the question I have is do you build up a tolerance to this stuff over time? If you don't, I can't imagine ever getting anywhere close to the 2-3 grams OTB mentioned earlier
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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Ellito on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:29 pm

Get niacinamide, not niacin

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Paysan on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:48 pm

In fact, your tolerance to flushing gets better after a while, Rig ...if you can stand it that long. It's tolerable in the depths of winter when you can go outside to cool down. However, I've heard 2 things about it. 1. It's the niacin that gives you benefit; so you'll need to develop tolerance. 2. you only get severe reactions like that if you are deficient in niacin to begin with. My mother never got any reaction; I always did. Whether or not I was truly deficient, I never found out. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Acroyali on Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:47 pm

I'm risking being banned but whatever.

I'll use dogs as an example, in dogs some breeds are predisposed to cancer (GSD's, Golden Retrievers, and Boxers are three lovely, but cancer-factory breeds that come to mind) and other breeds, like Cavaliers, are so pre-disposed to MVD (mitral valve disease) that 50% have it by age 5, and 80% have it by age 10. (They also have other weird problems like syringomyelia and EFS, syringo is more prominent in this breed and EFS is all but limited to the breed. Collies of all types are known for eye problems, certain breeds known for HD, etc...)

Some lines of dogs have literally died out due to their huge increase in cancers and other health problems. A line of American Pit Bull Terriers was plagued by a genetic defect in which the dogs were routinely dropping dead (literally) at 2-3 years old from heart problems that were difficult or impossible to detect, and impossible to treat. I know of a Golden breeder who states they have no breeding lines to a certain line of Golden's that are known for developing cancer.


Isn't genetics a possible link? I'm not saying if you have one parent and 3 grandparents with (insert disease) that it's your destiny and you'll die of the same thing, but would not your chances be greater, depending on your life style, eating habits, etc.? and wouldn't a sane person who is lucky to have their family history at their disposal take note of potential problems and do all they can to avoid?

Case in point, we had a dog that was in bad heart failure and the median survival time for a dog in his situation was 6 months...he lived over 2 1/2 years, with the help of medications, diet, supplements as well as a low-moderate active live style.

Not comparing dogs to humans, but I hang out with dogs more than I do humans and I've seen stuff that I think is not limited to one species.
JMO. Please don't ban.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Paysan on Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:05 pm

FWIW, I am one of 5 siblings with heart trouble out of 7. One died at age 15, the other, still living, has diabetes. The oldest died of a heart attack and diabetes complications. The rest of us are still alive with varying stages of heart disease, including stents and bypass surgeries. Our preponderance of heart disease has made us aware of certain familial tendencies - most of our mother's 15 siblings died of some form of stroke/heart problems, and a quick peek shows a lot can be laid at the door of malnutrition in a grandmother who worked very hard, lived in poverty during the Great Depression w/o a husband (he died of a heart attack at 54) and yet made it to 83. Most of Mother's siblings made it to their 80's, and one to 95.
Four of us made it to our 70's (eldest since deceased), soon to be 5; so I guess we can't complain too much about premature death. Well, I can - but that's just me. Wink
 Nevertheless, I agree that both genetics and epigenetics have played a role in what problems my family faces today.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Lovebird on Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:11 am

Acroyali wrote:I'm risking being banned but whatever.

Please don't ban.

Why? I hope you're joking btw, but without emojis it's kinda hard to tell.

Members that post inappropriate threads/replies will be warned (not that I think there's anything wrong with your post, just explaining) by getting their post edited by a moderator. So far only 2 members have enjoyed that privilege. Focus is mostly on foul language as different views are more than welcome to learn from. Only spammers and advertisers will be banned at first sight without any warning at all. Others that cross the line will get a PM stating they should behave within the rules of the forum or risk being excluded.

This is not the kind of forum where people need to fit into a perfect mold to feel welcome. There's room for everyone and all kinds of posts, as is obvious from the various threads already posted, as long as the tone of the posts is civil. Basically like MDA, just no spam. Smile

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by John Caton on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:06 am

My personal thought (ie. my never be humbled opinion) is that high cholesterol levels and plaque point to other health issues that neither statins nor supplements will correct alone.

High cholesterol may indicate that there is insufficient conversion of cholesterol into adrenal hormones which often is due to high estrogen which may be due to past or present PUFA intake. Insufficient conversion could be due to adrenal gland failure related to structural failure.

Plaque forms as a "band-aid" to patch areas of arterial structural failure, which may be due to insufficient vitamin C and/or collagen, sort of like an internal form of scurvy. Plaque buildup can kill us, but structural failure of our arterial walls can kill us sooner.

Regarding structural failure, many of us here acknowledge the importance of collagen, but CW doesn't. Collagen is critical to structural integrity; not just for skin, hair and healthy nails, but also for arteries, organs and glands. Collagen is now being seen as a probable player in cell differentiation, the failure of which may lead to the formation of cancerous cells when a newly formed cell cannot determine what kind of cell it's supposed to be.

But back to the topic of cholesterol and CW, please read this https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/know-your-fats/cholesterol-friend-or-foe/

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