Diet and CVD

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Diet and CVD

Post by Rocky07 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:43 pm

Years ago this was a hot topic here and elsewhere in the primal/paleo world. Emerging theories re LDL particle size and inflammation seemed to be ready to supplant CW. Unfortunately, except for the same few contrarians, nothing has changed. Cholesterol targets have stayed the same and statins are still prescribed for what seems like virtually everyone. Conventional dietary advice is pretty much the same as what you would hear in 1960. While research continues, our fundamental understanding of what causes plaque to form and, more important, what causes it to rupture are still not clear. Am I missing something?

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Rig D on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:55 pm

To my understanding you are on target. CW continues to rule the day. I believe that the actual number of people suffering heart attacks is pretty well spread across the high/low cholesterol range, and the things I've read would make you believe that low cholesterol is more dangerous than high, unless possibly if you are super high.

The thing I am most concerned with is the possible relationship of low cholesterol with Parkinsons and other brain degenerative things like Alzheimers. My MD has wanted me on statins to knock down my cholesterol, but has given up, at least for now, as I've told him I'm happy with where I am and willing to die of a heart attack vs just disappearing into some brain failure abyss.
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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Meant2Move on Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:29 pm

I think when it comes to cholesterol, it is a case where the drug companies are absolutely controlling the message, and likely the research. Despite being essential for every cell in the body, the general message is still that cholesterol is evil and that total cholesterol matters.
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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Ellito on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:38 pm

My understanding is that heart disease is mostly a symptom of insufficient thyroid hormones. Hypothyroidism causes high serum LDL, which explains the correlation.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:04 pm

Ellito wrote:My understanding is that heart disease is mostly a symptom of insufficient thyroid hormones. Hypothyroidism causes high serum LDL, which explains the correlation.

Not.At.All.

Radical theory, for sure. There are many factors, but hypothyroidism has never been brought up, anywhere (reputable.)

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:20 pm

'Tis funny you should bring this up.  I was about to start a thread on a supplement, but it fits here.

Suppose you could take a supplement that was cheap, had zero negative side effects, raised HDL and lowered LDL and trigs and often solved other problems like certain mental illnesses and skin disorders.  Sound like a dream?  It's been here forever; niacin, aka B3.

My fiance's LDL was a bit high, 122? Trigs, 72, HDL 62. Not bad and better than many. So I started researching how to lower LDL rather directly instead of long term diet cchanges which may or may not be effective. There were two candidates: niacin and red rice yeast.  It turns out the latter is the place statins were discovered!  Like penicillin in mold. So, by consuming RRY, you are taking a small amount of statins.  The problem with RRY is you have no idea of dosage. And you are taking a statin.  And no benefit to HDL or trigs.  Or, your brain.

The benefit of niacin on serum lipids has been known since the 1950's.  Why isn't it better known?  Hello, statins. Introduced in the 1980's.  Follow the money (and the propaganda.)

There are thousands of search hits out there on this. https://www.bing.com/search?q=serum+pipids+niacin&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR A Dr. Hoffer spent a lifetime studying niacin.  Put him into a search.

Therapeutic doses are 2-3 grams a day.  That's a lot, since niacin will cause skin flushing.  I am using Doctor's Best Time Release Niacin, 500mg.  I pop 3 or 4 during the day, keep the bottle by my computer. Once I tried two at once, and I did get some flushing, slightly uncomfortable, after about ten minutes.

I just found this very detailed paper by Dr. Hoffer: http://whale.to/a/hoffer5.html


Last edited by OnTheBayou on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Rig D on Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:52 pm

Thanks, OTB. I'll do some checking on both B3 and the Red Rice Yeast. My MD suggested RRY some time back and I've been using it, haven't noticed any big effect on my numbers. The niacin sounds intriguing.
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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Ellito on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:45 pm

OnTheBayou wrote:
Ellito wrote:My understanding is that heart disease is mostly a symptom of insufficient thyroid hormones. Hypothyroidism causes high serum LDL, which explains the correlation.

Not.At.All.

Radical theory, for sure.  There are many factors, but hypothyroidism has never been brought up, anywhere (reputable.)

This is actually old news. In many animal experiments, the animals' thyroids are removed to induce heart disease. It's so well-known they don't tend to mention it unless you read the "Methods" section closely. That being said, let's review the evidence:

People with heart disease tend to have high cholesterol, a symptom of hypothyroidism.

Removing or inhibiting an animal's thyroid induces heart disease.

Feeding an animal desiccated thyroid can reverse heart disease.

Pro-thyroid nutrients, like iodide and magnesium, can prevent or reverse heart disease in animals.

Diabetes, which lowers thyroid hormones, causes heart disease.

Giving diabetics insulin does not bring their heart disease rates back to that of the regular population.

Giving diabetics insulin and thyroid hormone brings their heart disease rates back to that of the regular population.

The physician Broda Barnes nearly eradicated heart disease among his patients. He prescribed thyroid hormone for anyone who appeared to need it.

In two (admittedly small) clinical trials, administration of thyroid hormone lowered heart disease rates.

Trials that lower blood sugar (eg LOOK AHEAD and ACCORD) generally fail to prevent heart disease (eg LOOK AHEAD and ACCORD). Not surprising if you don't consider hyperglycemia to be causal.

Hypothyroidism has been redefined. Under the old diagnostic criteria, as much as 40% of the population might be considered hypothyroid. Under the new criteria, only 5% are considered hypothyroid. So as much as 35% of the population would previously have been considered hypothyroid, but now are not, due to a new definition. This explains why hypothyroidism appears so much less common than heart disease.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:52 pm

@Ellito: Too sketchy, too removed from the biggies. For me, any way. Too much nuance to be definitive. I don't think removing a thyroid is what happened to most people with CVD. Inflammation, calcium and plaque build ups, perhaps iron overload, etc.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by Ellito on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:55 pm

OnTheBayou wrote:@Ellito: Too sketchy, too removed from the biggies.  For me, any way.  Too much nuance to be definitive.  I don't think removing a thyroid is what happened to most people with CVD.  Inflammation, calcium and plaque build ups, perhaps iron overload, etc.
You don't need to have your thyroid removed to be hypothyroid. Under the old diagnostic criteria, nearly 40% of the population might be hypothyroid. Clearly this is not due to 40% of people having thyroidectomies.

Anyway, modern things that inhibit the thyroid:

Diabetes

Magnesium deficiency

Endotoxin derived from unfavorable gut flora

I would suggest these are probably the big three causes, and the latter two are largely responsible for the first.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by sharperhawk on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:33 pm

Foam cells are macrophages that have swallowed up lots of LDL. That doesn't mean that all LDL are bad, but LDL is center stage, the star player of the show.
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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by breadsauce on Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:28 am

OTB, thanks for the link. I remember now that you have posted this that NewOldGuy (on the old forum!) recommended B3 when I had a heart attack a couple of years back. I'm starting with it today. Those links have made excellent reading and sound sensible. I've also been reading a lot of Dr Malcolm Kendrick's pages - very interesting also.

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:12 am

Rig D wrote:Thanks, OTB. I'll do some checking on both B3 and the Red Rice Yeast. My MD suggested RRY some time back and I've been using it, haven't noticed any big effect on my numbers. The niacin sounds intriguing.

Not surprised. As I noted, RRY potency can vary a lot, there is not standardized dosage. There are even claims that some companies actually put statins in the product to make it more potent. While that seems odd and economically illogical to me, it indicates - even as a rumor - that RRY is not the preferred treatment. And since it doesn't do anything for HDL or trigs or mental health or, or, or.............take niacin!

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Re: Diet and CVD

Post by OnTheBayou on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:19 am

breadsauce wrote:OTB, thanks for the link. I remember now that you have posted this that NewOldGuy (on the old forum!) recommended B3 when I had a heart attack a couple of years back. I'm starting with it today. Those links have made excellent reading and sound sensible. I've also been reading a lot of Dr Malcolm Kendrick's pages - very interesting also.

Great! One of the things that really impressed me on the paper that I linked to above, is that Dr. Hoffer came to his passion for niacin slowly and scientifically. And it involved other scientists and physicians, and that he had no ability to benefit financially.

There have been a few cautionary tales about concerns that the liver can't deal with such levels of B3. While I do think that these cannot be dismissed, and I might do some research, the fact that many have take 2-3 grams of B3 a day for decades would indicate that if there is a problem, it is not universal.

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